We Fixed It. You're Welcome.

Aaron Wolpoff [0:14 - 1:50]: All right, here's how this works. In each episode, we pick a company we all know that has something going on right now. Then we put ourselves in charge and see if we can fix it. You'll be hearing from Melissa in operations chief, Gino on people and culture, and me on marketing. My name's Aaron. As always, a quick disclaimer. We are going into this somewhat cold and nothing we say should be construed as legal advice, financial advice, or anything that would get us in trouble. These are our views and opinions. We're here to ask the kinds of questions everyone's thinking, have an engaging conversation, and maybe come to some conclusions that we feel are worth exploring by the end. If We Fixed it, you're welcome. All trademarks, IP and brand elements discussed are property of their respective owners. Welcome back to We Fixed It. You're welcome. If you've listened to recent episodes or even from the beginning, you know that every show we do is a whole new topic. Sometimes it's on the lighter side, and sometimes the very fabric of our society is at stake. No big deal. Today we're tackling the pressing issue of mass layoffs, including those just announced this past week. We'll be talking about this wave of companies undergoing mass layoffs, though there are certainly similar ripple effects across government agencies, academic institutions and other areas. But we know companies the best, so that's where we'll center our discussion. We are your fearless fixers, your panelists, Chino, Melissa and myself. And we're joined again by Sam Palazzolo from Tip of the Spear Ventures and first time guest, Christina Sacco, vice president of marketing for Produs Global. Produs does recruitment and talent acquisition primarily for cpg. So consumer product companies, food and beverage and other areas. And Christina, tell us more about that and take a moment to introduce yourself.

Christina Sacco [1:51 - 2:32]: Thank you. I'm Christina Sacco. I'm the head of marketing for Produce Global. And we've been in business. This is our 30th year. Our company has built the teams for Diageo, Hostess, Red Bull, North America, White Claw. So we've been in the space for such a long time that we have deeply entrenched relationships. And really at the core of what we do is our North Star, which is building companies and changing lives. So we believe that every placement has a ripple effect, not just for the candidate, you know, they're going on to their next dream job, but also for the companies that we're helping build the team. It helps take them to the next level.

Aaron Wolpoff [2:33 - 2:40]: So very, very relevant for the situation. We're in today. So great to have you here. Christina and Sam, remind our listeners who you are.

Sam Palazzolo [2:41 - 3:06]: Hi, I'm Sam Palazzolo. I'm managing director at Tip of the Spear Ventures. We're a family office. I'm based in Manhattan, New York City. We do a couple of different things today. I'm ex Deloitte. I help businesses scale scale from 1 to 10 million, 10 million to over a billion dollars. So looking forward to today's participation from a financial perspective. I'm keyed in, by the way, on four items today.

Aaron Wolpoff [3:06 - 4:38]: Okay. We look forward to that. Great. Thanks. Thanks, Sam. Great as always to have you back. We always like to stack the deck in our favor. So thanks to the two of you for joining us today because we're here to talk about the mass layoff epidemic that's been sweeping the nation. Usually we drill down to one company and we try to fix it, but that's pretty impossible to do in this case. It's just so everywhere, widespread. So we're going to see if we can fix this whole situation one way or another. If we look back to January of this past year, nearly 50,000 jobs were eliminated at U.S. companies, according to a Feb. 6 report from Challenger Gray. And Christmas, it seems that job cuts are everywhere. This actually was the lowest January job cut total in three years, but it was a 28% jump from the number of job cuts that happened in December. But since January, we've been hearing about workforce reduction at one company after another after another. So you got Intel, FedEx, Neiman Marcus, our friends at Walgreens from a previous episode, our friends at Starbucks from a previous episode, HP Workday, Salesforce, Southwest Airlines, Meta, Chevron, Disney was recently announced cutting another 200 or so jobs. If we get into CPG, we have PepsiCo closing manufacturing plants and cutting more jobs. And the list keeps growing and growing. So I want to open it up to everyone. Let's get into it. What are, what are we seeing here? Is this a recurring cycle that we all kind of forgot about, or is this uncharted territory and will things stabilize soon and go back into growth mode? Or is this just the beginning, wants to start, start?

Chino Nnadi [4:38 - 7:21]: Well, it's interesting, too, because I think both Christina and I have a different lens coming from like the recruitment and talent space where, you know, when we look at this year alone and it's only March 7th when we're recording this, so this short time, but, you know, we have to kind of go back a little bit into the history and talk about the cycles of recruitment and kind of how it's been happening. Because if you look before, during like pre Covid, right, it was an insane candidate market. You would post a job, it was almost impossible to find somebody because maybe three or four people would apply. It was really the candidate market where you're seeing salaries, insane levels, very hard to find great people. Covid happens. Obviously, there were a lot of layoffs or furloughs. And that in the beginning part of 2020 really messed up the market because no one knew what to do. So there was a lot of pausing, hiring freezes and layoffs as well. But if you kind of check back into kind of July of 2020, kind of that mid time when we're all under lockdown, but people started figuring out how to work remotely, hiring started happening again. You weren't seeing the insane salaries and asks that you did just a year before. What you were looking for is people who were kind of just desperate to have a job and they were happy to be working remotely, which was great. And that kind of took us until about 20, 20, 21, 2022. And then again, you had that next flip of okay, everyone kind of figured out how to work remotely in this kind of COVID situation, allowed for more global access of talent. And then again, you had another boom of talent market where it was very hard, everybody was hiring again. It was exciting for recruiters. It was like you couldn't stop bringing in the searches. And then, you know, Fast forward to 2023 and things started halting and we started to see more and more of these layoffs. You know, it started small, it was quiet. And then it grew into kind of these huge companies like you've mentioned, Aaron. Mass layoffs. Mass layoffs. Mass layoffs. And it's kind of what you've continued to hear since then. 2025 has been interesting because in light of all of these huge mass layoffs that you've heard, there's been quiet hiring happening in the background. So it's a very interesting time. And Christina, I'm excited to kind of hear your perspective too, as a fellow recruiter in this business, because we get some inside scoops that most people don't get. So I'd love to get your take here too.

Christina Sacco [7:21 - 9:39]: Yeah, so everything you said we've seen because we're specifically focused on cpg, where we've been affected by these ebbs and flows, everything you talked about. But you know, we decided long ago that we would be advisors and partners. And what we saw, especially like on the IT side, the gig economy you know, there was some over hiring happening which you know, sometimes it's hard for people or for companies to anticipate. Like, you know, you're saying things are going crazy. I mean you think about during the pandemic, what was happening. Like people couldn't keep up with production, needed more people. But also, you know, there is, like you said, a lot of other things happening in the background and I would just want to talk about like the modern workforce. So I think companies haven't quite caught up and we're living in a world now where it used to be like full time or part time. Now especially, especially I think through the pandemic it has accelerated all these different ways to go into the workforce. So when you look at your total workforce, you want to think about it as a pie. So if a company is strategic enough, they can hire accordingly where they can avoid these types of layoffs. So for instance, you've got, I would never recommend a five year plan anymore because it's, it's going to be out the window. But you should have some strategy of where you're heading. So if you know, like okay, we need these things happening, these are the priority. We need this X amount full time staff. But there's these projects that we need. Like we need to build out this infrastructure in hr. We need to build out some more technology on the marketing side. You can bring in interim fractional contract where they're specialized, they're really good at what they do, they're in for the project based work and then you don't really need them. You just have the staff that you have full time to keep it running and maintained. So if you look at your workforce that way and you look at how you're building out your business, you can avoid these mass layoffs. Because I think what happened is they built in too much redundancy. You know, you don't need 10 people in this one region, let's say in sales. Maybe you could do the same thing with five.

Melissa Eaton [9:39 - 12:47]: I love that Christina, because I think that that actually lends into the areas that I would want to talk about when we talk about rifts and layoffs is around corporate responsibility. And because Sam is always so organized, I'm going to tell you I have four points on this and I'm going to give you a softball Sam, because my fourth point is really your point. So really around corporate responsibility and strategic planning. So to your point, do we really understand what the business ecosystem is today, what, what our customers need, how we can do this and what tools we have available for our teams to be able to be very efficient and operate in a way that makes sense. So transparency, mindful execution, and all the ethical considerations that go with reductions in force. Now, we also need to be mindful of our team members and how we're laying them off. Right. This has become one of those things where you're getting a ding on your phone at 4am saying you have a meeting with someone from HR that you don't even know. Right. And everybody's full panic mode. Right? Yeah. So really, you know, the dignity, respect, mental health support, clear communications, like, if somebody puts a one on one on my calendar, now you're afraid. Right. So, like, now we have to go back and think about how do we communicate with our teams, how do we set up this, you know, rebuild this trust and then the impact on all those folks that are remaining. Right. We've talked about survivor guilt before, but you have to address morale. You have to rebuild trust. This gets back to brands. Erin, we'll be talking about that. And avoid overburdening the folks that are left. Right. And they're in full panic mode. Right. And they've got survivor's guilt, they've got ptsd. They have all those things. But from a business and operational perspective, and this is where I really want Sam to kind of dive in deep. Is our layoffs really a fiscal tool, or are you really trimming fat? Because I think in the past, there was this idea around redundancy and things like that. But what I'm hearing now is like, we're trying to boost our profits or ebitda. Right, Right. And so we have to make. We have to. You know, we have the board meeting coming up, so we've got to get rid of some, you know, some expenses here. And the number one expense in any company is their team, the resources and payroll. So layoffs can artificially inflate that. And so I'd love to hear, you know, Sam, your perspective about what is really driving these. Is it really that the businesses are failing and flailing and some of them are. We know. We've. We've talked about some of those together. Or is it really, you know, more generally to improve the business? Because there are. There are redundancies in the process. So, Sam, from a fiscal perspective, what's your. What are your thoughts?

Sam Palazzolo [12:47 - 15:11]: You bring up a great point. Let me back up. In order to go forward, I am the product of a layoff. I put my way through undergrad, working as a UAW member on an assembly line. I was Approaching that difficult decision at graduation of do I stay as a UAW member with a degree and earn here, or do I go out after what my degree was in and get a salary that was here. Right. Well, I didn't have to worry about it because poof, one night, 2:00am in the morning, I was working the graveyard shift. My supervisor came over and he said, hey, I got good news. You're laid off. I don't exactly know what was good news about it at the time. I thought it sucked, quite frankly. But it was good news and it was the best news that ever could have happened to me. Here's, here's my take on all of this. Layoffs suck, right? Everybody hates them. But there is a cold, hard financial reality. And there's four things. Let me go through them. The first one is that as Melissa hit on, there's an immediate cost reduction, an immediate cost reduction, payroll being the single biggest expense most companies have on their statements. Well, when you relieve some of the head count, you relieve some of those costs. Okay? That's the first thing. The second is, is that it boosts shareholder value. Investors, they're not emotional, they are reward efficient. They look for these as signs that the organization is moving in the right direction. So it boosts shareholder value. The third thing, this is an operational efficiency moment. Chino, I think you hit on it nicely. Is the investment in innovation and technology starting to pay off? I think we're going to see that coming down the pipe. And Aaron, I know you're going to hit on this a little bit, but the fourth, the fourth thing that is my take is that this is a great strategic realignment opportunity. The government and DOGE doesn't need to be the only ones who are taking advantage of. We know we have inefficient areas within our business, so let's cut it out. Right. We can do those regardless of the size of your organization. So those are my four takes. Let me turn it over to you, Aaron.

Aaron Wolpoff [15:11 - 16:43]: Yeah. I want to go back, Christina, to what you were saying about companies and having their internal teams and workforce and then bringing in specialists that come in and do their one area of expertise and they help to augment the internal team, which helps things run operationally efficient. It helps to run a lean operation if you want to or are not overstaff, and keep it right sized. And that in a normal market, that's a great scenario because if you're a highly trained expert and you're sitting on the outside and you come in and do what you do and only what you do, and then you're on to the next. It's a great symbiotic relationship for everybody. But I think the balance is really off right now. And having been in the fractional agency world myself and in the community with a number of others, I see that imbalance where it's in sometimes the. There's just so much saturation of external talent because of the companies shedding jobs that are actual jobs that should be, you know, seated positions in the company and trying to make up for that with. With patches. Right. Band aids. And there's so much. There's such. Such an abundance of external talent that it's. At times it's so devalued. It's almost like a race to the bottom of which, you know, who's the highest trained expert I can get for the lowest dollar value and not add headcount to my company. So it's. It's the dynamics just really off right now.

Christina Sacco [16:43 - 17:00]: Yeah, you want to have a balance. And that's why I was saying you have to be strategic about your business. Right. So what do you actually need in the moment? But there's going to be. I'm a very. This is very near and dear to my heart. There's no bigger advocate for your brand than your people.

Aaron Wolpoff [17:00 - 17:00]: So.

Christina Sacco [17:01 - 18:18]: So it doesn't matter how great this interim or fractional or contract person is, and they can absolutely help boost morale, don't get me wrong. But if you really want to grow your brand, you grow it with your people. So you hire the people that align with who you are, what your values are, and who can communicate that out in every day in how they interact with each other and with your customers. And if you have happy people, they will tell everybody how great the brand is, period. It's earned to its max, you know, and if you're hiring the right people and you're making sure that they're aligned to your culture, you won't have these issues. Right. Because you're going to find those impact players who are there to, you know, build what your vision is. And I think that's also what happens in hiring, is that people hire based on skill set versus maybe somebody's operating values. Um, and yes, they do need to have the skill set there, but if you have somebody who has a little less experience, but they align with you better, they'll end up staying with you longer and, you know, you won't have to trim the fat, so to speak, because they're already creating so much more impact than somebody who's Just checking the boxes.

Melissa Eaton [18:18 - 19:31]: In today's world. I think this is a question for Chino and Christina. In today's world, with these mass layoffs happening very frequently. Right. And Met is a great example where it feels like every quarter it's happening. How do you do that with your current workforce and the folks you're bringing in? That would be. My question is how do you build that kind of. It's almost like you have to build like a resiliency trait in there, but also a recognition trait because people are so scared they're feeling like they're not valued. Because I know a lot of people in these large companies and companies I've worked for feel like now with all of these layoffs, oh, I don't matter to them, I don't matter to this company. I'm just a number and tomorrow I could be gone. So I feel like you've got this kind of, you know, two double edged sword where you do this for the business and for, you know, for all the reasons Sam mentioned. But like at the same time, how do you, you know, repair your culture and your, and your workforce? Because they're in a lot of pain right now.

Chino Nnadi [19:31 - 22:54]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would say with this and I'll kind of segue to you too, Christina, but it's very interesting. I don't like the term trim the fat. Now. I think again, 2019 pre Covid when we didn't see layoffs as much, it really, really was that, right. People were getting laid off because they not performing well. And that's what happened. Now as Sam has shared, it's become more of a fiscal thing. Again, is it a coincidence that it's every quarter that Meta seems to lay off? No, it's not. You know, in my day to day, I speak to at least one or two people every single day who've been impacted in some way or another from layoffs at huge companies, high level, mid level, everything in between. And to your point, Melissa, of kind of what that morale is, is there's even people who are reaching out who have, you know, gone past and survived the layoff, who are like, I'm terrified that in the next quarter I'm, I'm up. We talked a little bit about Meta before, but kind of bringing it back to their headline of, you know, they were trimming the fat and it's like, well, these people who have been left or, you know, this is like the 20th layoff. What do you mean the fat? How, how are these your low performers? Because they've got past so many rounds, right. And so I don't think anymore for most companies, particularly the big companies, it's trimming the fat. It's a fiscal decision. That said, to Christina's point earlier, we don't have to do this. Right. When you look at small, medium size, like I do think we need to bring back layoffs where it actually had meaning, where someone was low performing and we let them go. And not using this as a fiscal tool. The way to do that is to build strong recruitment strategies 1, 3, 5 years down the line where you are strategically and thoughtfully hiring people that fit the kind of brand and the essence of your company that have top level skill. We're in a market where we have so many top talent, where I was pleading with them to pick up my call a few years ago who are now quote unquote on the street. Right. So the matter and the need for, you know, underperformance, there's no excuse here. You have the best of the best at your disposal in a way as a company. So almost taking advantage of that and building your teams around that and finding the best that align that are not over hiring. Right. We need to stop over hiring. You need to have that recruitment plan in place knowing exactly who you need. Again, fractional is a great way to try before you buy. I like to say is again before adding that headcount and you know, testing someone out them testing you out to see if there's that fit is a really great way. I'm seeing more companies do that with the clients I'm working with. That said, you can't lean on fractional because it's costly. It actually sometimes is double the salary of somebody else because you're getting a top player. So that can't be your only kind of stopgap. You do need to look at hiring more thoughtfully. But Christina, I would love to kind of get your thoughts to you also being in kind of the space.

Christina Sacco [22:54 - 25:17]: Well, adding to what Melissa was saying, how do you wrap your arms around the people who are making it through layer after layer and you know, quarter after quarter, it really comes down to a strong internal communication plan. So we actually spoke with the chro of Coca Cola a few years ago and they had a great plan in place. Number one, it starts from the leadership. So have a strong strategic vision and you share that. And those people who don't really want to be a part of that, you give them opportunity to say this is where we're headed. And you know, if they don't want to go that way that's great. You've already sort of determined who wants to be there. You explain, hey, there's, these are challenges, things are changing. Number two, you have to have a really great communication layer for the people who are managing the people day to day. So you have your C level executive team, but you have the people who are managing the teams every day, communicating to them weekly, frequently, making sure that gets trickled down. I've run programs like this, creating playbooks weekly playbooks with how can we talk to our team, how can we get these behaviors, you know, trickled through to make sure that everybody's staying aligned and having that two way communication between the C level and your, say, your frontline managers. Third, are there opportunities for people to be upskilled? So if these are positions that are going away, can you implement training where you can take some really great people and move them into a different position that you know, certain positions will go away as technology changes, as, you know, the industry changes. Could you reskill them? Can you upskill them? Open up those new positions? Why hire outside when you have some great people internally that just need a new skill set? And then I would say fourthly, when we're talking about the people who have made it through this over and over, keeping them aligned on what that strategic vision is through communications, through the training and communication plans, also making sure that there's opportunity for them to grow internally so they don't see themselves as I'm just another number, maybe they do see the opportunity. Hey, we're opening up these roles. Is this something you want to apply for internally?

Melissa Eaton [25:17 - 25:53]: Yeah, I think you bring up some amazing points. Both of you do. Because I think in the real life scenario, that's where, you know, I was getting to the whole corporate responsibility around strategic planning and how and the change management that goes along with RIFs. The problem today is that it's like the communication is happening at the top level. So a lot of riffs, mine include, I mean, Sam, we talked all of the kinds of communications that happen. There is like a one line slack. Melissa is no longer here.

Chino Nnadi [25:54 - 25:55]: Yeah.

Melissa Eaton [25:55 - 26:05]: Okay. And then, and then like you have a team of 450 people. What I, I like, where, where is she?

Aaron Wolpoff [26:05 - 26:05]: Where?

Melissa Eaton [26:05 - 26:09]: What, what, what, what are the projects that she's working on? How about that?

Christina Sacco [26:09 - 26:10]: This, this, this.

Melissa Eaton [26:10 - 28:36]: She was working on my promotion yesterday. La la la la la la. And then there's no communication. And so when you think about that, what ends up happening? Which I thought was really interesting. One of my colleagues and friends shared this about. She's going through lots of layoffs at her company. They all end up becoming private investigators, finding they have to sleuth around to say, wait, now who's doing this work? Now who's doing this work? Because the communication plan hasn't been set forth and clear. And I think, Christina, it's a great idea. I know we've had, you know, town halls and things like that to try to get that. But like, when you think about, like, who's planning these, they are sometimes so many levels away from, from the teams that are impacted that the operational repair has not been done. Right. They've let go this entire team and then they're like, oh, no, we didn't realize that this was the main conduit and contact and liaise for our number one customer. Right. You know, or whatever it might be. I mean, that might be a little exaggerated, but those types of things happen. And then you're like, oh my gosh, we didn't really think that through. And it's not that that wasn't a good idea strategically from a fiscal perspective or planning perspective. And I think Sam and I agree on that. It's just that how it's executed doesn't always fit. And so I love that you have playbooks. I love that you've said these things because it's like any other initiative and actually probably more so that you have to over index on the planning side, the communication side, the, the time frame that it's going to take people to rebuild that trust, rebuild your brand, rebuild your culture, repair your operations. I mean, it's going to take time and you're going to have to be able to understand that you can't force feed this to your teams. And definitely when you're thinking about a business, a lot of know all the businesses we're talking about our customer facing, how is your brand and how is your product and services impacted and your business will be impacted negatively if they feel like we're getting less than we were a week ago when we had before the layoffs.

Aaron Wolpoff [28:36 - 28:50]: Well, Sam, I want to ask you, is that the responsibility of the leadership level to continue stopping, realigning the team, communicating, making sure everyone's feeling good about what's happening or at least as good as can be, or is it. You have to keep moving.

Sam Palazzolo [28:50 - 31:16]: Yeah. You can have the best laid plans from a strategy perspective. You can have amazing playbooks for communication channels and what you should do and at what time intervals, but it never eclipses the fiscal responsibility of the leaders within the organization. We act like this is something new. Like layoffs are something that just got invented thanks to AI. And that is not the case. They have been around forever. But let's reality check ourselves here. Unemployment is 4.1% on a national basis and compare contrast with Europe at large, which is almost at 6%. And those 2% points matter. We're not so bad from an economic perspective. And we're also, from an economic perspective, the U.S. we're the big dog on the block, top of the food chain. Right? So I just want some reality. This whole do more with less. You just lost half of your team, so pick up the slack. That's not something new. It's been around forever. It's easier today, though. I'll give you a great example. It's easier today to absorb those types of losses. Specifically when it comes to how it is that we innovate and leverage technology. One of the tech firms that we work with, what used to take them 16 weeks now takes them 5 hours. 16 weeks to 5 hours. Rapid compression of timeline and creation of revenue. So does it take a lot of folks? Maybe not. Does it take some thoughtfulness from a leadership perspective and maybe some transparency? Maybe, you know, but I think we've all worked with those leaders who. And maybe their past leaders, but leaders who haven't been as transparent, who might have held some of the cards close to the vest because in the event that they made the announcement or misspoke about what the reality of the situation was, people might have departed. Right. I think that as we go forward, we will see less. We will see less engagement, we will see less employee satisfaction, we will see less. I'm going to be an employee for life and I think I can stay here. Turnover will increase. I think we'll see less. Less, less.

Chino Nnadi [31:17 - 34:48]: I would agree with all of this. But I also think too, what we need to remember with layoffs is, and you know, again, America, you're at 4.6, I believe you quoted, you know, Canada, 6.7 right now. Not great. And again there's the fiscal responsibility, but again there is a corporate responsibility as to how you do a layoff. Great example, won't mention the name, but a huge tech company that we probably all use their app on a day to day basis. And when they were doing this layoffs, and again, thousands and thousands of people, they have multiple levels of hr, people were receiving other people's layoff emails. Right. It was messy. People were getting calls and it wasn't the right person. Hey, I was supposed to have this promotion and now I'm being laid off, but you're still asking me to interview. But that person isn't here. That type of mess. Right? And I think there is, I don't think there is a corporate responsibility. We are dealing with humans. The day that the workforce is entirely all robots is a day we can be robotic about a layoff. But there are humans that are here that we need to remember. Because you know what, like, everything says, you know, it's a small world, you have six degrees of separation. You're probably going to work with these people again. It'll likely be your customer, your client, who you've laid off. So how you lay off is important, and I think that is what people need to remember. It's not a new concept. It is something we see more often than not. But the way layoffs are happening now are inhumane. Right. And I want to talk about ways that we can make a layoff better, because it's not going anywhere, specifically in these bigger corporations, as we've been able to use tech to kind of refine and reframe how people's responsibilities are. But the human aspect is huge. And going back to Christina's point on employer branding, if you can lay off humanely, you're going to be much better off. You're going to improve your morale within your team. And what that can look like is, you know, can you extend benefits are people who have been laid off. It's not the like, hey, you know, Chino's gone and poof, I just disappear. It's, hey, you know, maybe they have a, an opportunity to share with the team or, you know, here's how to connect with them outside of this or their LinkedIn or, you know, here's a card, here's something we can share. There are so many things you can do. And of course, hr, put your HR hat you want to kind of mitigate some of the lawsuits that you can kind of take on. However, there are things you can do to avoid that. That's still human. That allows people who have been laid off. Maybe you have a list of people where it's like, hey, we have great folks. Anyone's hiring, you know, you're connecting them to recruiters, you're helping them with, you know, tailing and upscaling their resume. You know, you're. There's groups that you're creating. There are ways to do this humanely. And I think that's what we need to remember when we talk about this, because I understand the fiscal responsibility. I get it as a business Owner. I understand it from being on the HR side where I've had to lay off people. That said there's a way in which we can do this that can actually help and build your employer brand and help the people that are there. And you know, as someone who's talking to people who've been laid off in some of the worst ways, it's not okay. And I don't want this to be the standard and I think that's something that we need to be able to fix.

Sam Palazzolo [34:49 - 34:55]: Yeah, maybe there's a good way of, with dignity and respect, letting go of folks.

Chino Nnadi [34:55 - 34:55]: Exactly.

Sam Palazzolo [34:55 - 35:50]: With dignity and respect. You know, one of our best programs right now is what we call Leaders in Training transition. It's a 90 day program where as leaders are either forced out or maybe they're smelling the coffee and they want to get ahead of it. They want out before the axe falls on them. Yet this program specifically is the responsibility though of the individuals from a financial perspective. But it puts them in a better position almost as a marketing sales campaign to target where it is their next opportunity might lie. Outreach. Connect with those leaders and just like a sales campaign, find a home. It's, it's an amazing process for us. I also like, Chino, what you said earlier that I don't like the trim the fat line. I heard it termed you can trim the fat but you sometimes nick the muscle. And that's never a good moment either.

Aaron Wolpoff [35:50 - 36:39]: Yeah. I think what these companies are doing is creating challenger brands. They're, they're creating this widespread pool of talent. They're cutting business lines and even profit centers that are less profitable for big companies. That's a business right there. Right. That for a small company you could pick up an entire, you know, an entire business line and the people that ran it, you know, that entire division and run it as a company. So I think, you know, in this market, small companies, if they can, if they can bear it, you know, scrape together whatever investment capital there is, pick up those people. I would, I was, I would say in three to five years we're going to see these Challenger brands go up against the very companies that let these people go. And it's going to be a really, really interesting dynamic.

Chino Nnadi [36:39 - 38:23]: I 100% agree. That's why you're seeing more fractional support, small businesses opening up you've never seen before. And I think that's also what's helped mitigate some of these unemployment rates, which is incredible to see. Again, to your point of like the nicking the muscle. Right. Okay. You Cut the fat. But there are so many people I speak to who are the top of the top of this talent. And if this company lost one of these two key players of leadership, they're screwed. They're already looking because, you know, I've had an amazing conversation with a leader, again like precedent level of a huge tech company who is saying, yeah, I don't like the way the stakeholders and the board members kind of did this. You know, I helped grow this team for eight years. I have relationships with people. People are reaching out to me saying what the hell happened here? And you know, again, working with that person on a kind of next steps and where, where they're going to go and to this company, there's a huge company that's going to be detrimental. And what they're doing now and by not being humane is setting up and pissing off their future competitors. So give it three, four years. To your point, Aaron, you're gonna have the people who you let go, who know your business inside and out, who do not give, excuse my French, a fuck about you, where they're going to come and be your number one competitors. And so it's again, from a fiscal perspective, being humane and human sometimes will actually help you at the tail end of this. And I'm excited kind of to see, not excited, but we're going to see that shift as more and more layoffs happen.

Melissa Eaton [38:23 - 39:57]: Yeah, I also think that there. Sam brought this up and I've talked about this a lot with corporate responsibility. We put a lot of onus on the business, but there's also personal, personal responsibility as an employee. And so I love what you're doing, Sam, with, you know, with, you know, sharing, you know, what, what does your future hold? That is your responsibility as an employee, as a leader. I'm sure Christina and Gina, you hear this all the time. I used to share this with my leadership team with, with people that I mentored. Skip level conversations. I'd say you should always be testing the market. And what I mean by that is then, you know, what are the skill sets that you need to up level and learn? Okay. AI, whatever it might be. Right. You know, so that you would be the most attractive candidate in any pool. Right. It's not because I'm saying I want you to leave the company or leave this team, but it's always in our best interest to, to always strive to be better and to do more. So I do feel like, you know, of course I'm not blaming anyone for layoffs, but what I'm saying is that you can always prepare yourself by always being your best advocate. Because that is where it's at. You have to be your best advocate. And I think looking for opportunities like what Sam has suggested, and you know that there are within your organization today, within your network, all over, you've got to put your best foot forward. Yeah.

Sam Palazzolo [39:57 - 40:52]: When we work with leaders, we request every three years they go out and test the market. It's not quiet quitting. I mean, just go out and test your market value. Pick up my car, identify if there is a place that's going to pay you more. And if that's the case, then bring that offer letter into your superior or HR and say, hey, look, I don't want to leave. But in all transparency, I received the better job offer and here's how much more it pays or the benefits are this much and see that they will match it. I see that 90% of the time the organization steps up and says, yeah, we're not going to lose you. Now the caveat of that is, what if you go out and you do the market test and you identify, oh my gosh, I'm getting paid more than the market. My recommendation, shut up, go to work.

Melissa Eaton [40:52 - 41:45]: There's a sense of like understanding that the company really values me, like that they're paying me over market. They don't have to. And I am in a really great position and I have the space, I have a role. I can actually go and take some courses to, to upskill and up level. And I think that's, I mean, I agree. I think it's, it's not about leaving what you have. It's about knowing what the competitive landscape looks like. And I mean, I think we would always want to do that. I mean, it's like, you know, if you have kids that are applying to colleges, they're not all applying, hopefully not just to one college. Right. You know, you say, okay, you can have your dream school, good luck to you there. And then you have the others. Right. But you should have choices. And I think that if you don't do that, you're not giving yourself choices. Right.

Aaron Wolpoff [41:46 - 42:21]: So, yeah, well, I don't think we fixed the idea of mass layoffs. Like that's old as the hills and it's not going anywhere. But did we find, you know, between taking care of your people, internal communication, the fiscal responsibility, reskilling, upskilling, and then also not giving your those who have been let go the motivation to become super villains and come back and take a bite out of your company? Did we find a better, better way around what's happening right now. Christina, what do you think?

Christina Sacco [42:21 - 43:38]: Well, I liked what you were saying, Melissa. Never let yourself become obsolete. I don't 100% agree though, with shopping yourself. Yes, you should always know what you're worth. But I think if somebody's shopping around and they're going to get a better offer, they're already one foot out the door, right. Coming back to the company and say, hey, I can get paid more. Do you really want to work for a company who's underpaying you? Probably not. I mean, that's what the advice I would give a candidate, I don't know. I think, you know, it's not a perfect world. And yes, if people are more thoughtful about their hiring and their business, you could probably avoid a lot of this. If we're not treating people as transactions, you know, like to Sam's, Sam's point, you know, let's, let's reduce our overhead so we can show more profits. And I think you're always going to have that in business. Not everybody is as warm and wonderful as we are here. But gosh, I think I'd love to keep talking about it, but I think it really comes down to, you know, being a person. You know, the world's not ever going to be taken over by robots. Even if we have robots doing a lot of roles is still people buying the products, people using the services. It. You can't take the human out of it. So, you know, you just have to be thoughtful. You just have to be thoughtful.

Aaron Wolpoff [43:38 - 43:42]: All right, Melissa, what do you think? Do we find a better way to navigate the situation?

Melissa Eaton [43:42 - 44:38]: Well, I think we all agree that layoffs are more than just a financial decision. They're a double edged sword. And while they can help us streamline operations, cut costs, they also risk damaging morale, customer trust, long term innovation. The key is to approach these workforce reductions strategically and with a focus on preserving our core capabilities or the company's core capabilities and the remaining employees and also approaching them like Christina and Chino, we've all talked about from a human perspective with empathy, transparency and vision. I think so. I think that we brought some really key things up because what we have seen as outsiders perspectives, and maybe some of us as insiders, is those are things that it doesn't really feel like all of those things are being put together in a puzzle.

Aaron Wolpoff [44:38 - 44:40]: So thanks, Melissa. Sam, what do you say?

Sam Palazzolo [44:41 - 45:14]: Yeah, Aaron, I think the better question is, was there really ever anything to fix? My take is, I said it at the beginning I'll say it again, layoffs suck, but they also signal evolution. Right. Companies that make cuts strategically rather than reactively, those are the ones that are going to come out ahead, the ones that do this layoff moment blindly. They're going to be the ones that are going to be right back at the hiring table. We all know who they are and they're going to be scrambling for talent that they just let go.

Aaron Wolpoff [45:14 - 45:16]: Thanks, Sam. Gina, final thoughts?

Chino Nnadi [45:17 - 45:58]: I think when it comes to bigger companies and layoffs, I don't think we fix that. I think it's something that's always going to happen. But have we provided solutions on how to do a layoff more humanely? Absolutely. Have we looked at it in a sense where if we can hire strategically like Christina had been sharing as well and not over hiring to avoid layoffs, especially for those mid size, again, great opportunities, you don't lose that talent like Sam has been talking about. So I don't think we fix the problem. We're going to continue to see layoffs, but we've provided solutions on how to do it in a more human way.

Aaron Wolpoff [45:58 - 46:05]: Very good. Thanks, Gino, Chris, thank you again to our guest, Christina. Christina, remind us, where can our listeners find you?

Christina Sacco [46:06 - 46:19]: You can find us online. It's www.protistglobal.com that's spelled P R O T I S global G L O B A L. Thanks for having me. This has been very enjoyable.

Aaron Wolpoff [46:20 - 46:26]: Thanks for hopping on with us, Christina and Sam, our recurring finance panelist. Where can listeners find you?

Sam Palazzolo [46:26 - 46:48]: Yeah, listeners can find me@sampalazzolo.com if you want to find out more about our leaders and transition program outreach, connect with me either there or on LinkedIn. We also have a series of Catalyst programs, the CEO Catalyst. It helps leaders lead themselves, lead their teams, even if it's just a team of one, and scale their business, whatever their business is.

Aaron Wolpoff [46:48 - 47:13]: Thank you, Sam. That does it for us. For those who have been impacted by the recent layoffs in this job market in general, we'll put some resources up there for you on this episode page on we fixeditpod.com and also, don't forget to take our survey. We've extended it through the end of March and you'll find that on the website too. We fixed it. Pod.com we'll see you next time. This podcast is produced by Straightforward Media Group. All rights reserved.

Chino Nnadi [47:13 - 47:14]: If you'd like to learn more about.

Sam Palazzolo [47:14 - 47:28]: How a podcast can help your company establish authority and generate leads, please email us@erictraightforwardmg.com or go to straightforwardmg.com for more information.